Scarlet and Violet UU Post-Home Viability Rankings

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Mossy Sandwich

Gunning for the top
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UUPL Champion
:oricorio-pom-pom: UR --> B-/B
This one I feel like kind of went under the radar, especially considering something like Bellibolt got ranked. Simply put, this is valuable defensively and fairly threatening if it can setup. It's pretty much the only thing that can legitimately wall Band Gapdos at least pre-tera and, while you'd be right to say that Band's lower speed makes it worse than Scarf, it can still be nice to have something that can actually take its hits. Obviously, it can also wall Scarf pretty well and can deal with Torn-T who runs similar coverage. Dancer is also very useful as, with a little bit of speed, you can copy Quaquaval's Aqua Step and Gyarados's Dragon Dance and become a consistent answer to them, assuming they're not running a ton of speed to outspeed some nonexistent scarfer. Aside from that, it's not a sturdy answer to that much, but it can serve as a Scizor check and can annoy some bulky passive stuff like Cyclizar and Slowking due to threatening setup. As far as threatening a sweep goes, it can generally deal with its natural answers through tera more effectively than it could pre-home. While Tyranitar and Quagsire are good counters, their drop in usage makes Oricorio have an easier time breaking through and we're seeing pseudo-answers such as Arcanine-H, Iron Treads and Skeledirge that are more easily pressured and broken by Tera Ground or Water. Even uninvested, Tera Revelation Dance is actually a great way to force Dirge to tera or to straight up beat it if your opponent's tera has already been used as it threatens significant enough damage to properly PP Stall Slack Off. Short of it is that pompom provides good defensive value to teams and that it's still a fairly scary sweeper thanks to a shift in most commonly used mons.

:overqwil: B --> B-
Honestly, I think I was overvaluing this when I originally ranked it, it was nice last month due to being a solid Meow counter and being a good Spiker as it could Toxic every hazard removal option. Both of these have changed this month with Meow rising and Treads dropping, making it much worse at what it's supposed to do.

:slowbro-galar: B --> B+/A-
This, on the other hand, is a very good Poison type. If you're running physdef to make CM work or whatever, you have a very nice blanket wall for stuff like Quaval, Gapdos and even Boots K9, but there's more to it. There is a lot of room for creativity with Glowbro as its wide movepool gives it coverage to get through a lot of different mons and it can use more aggressive sets like Nasty Plot to break. It's also seen some good success on Grassy Terrain teams as it benefits from Grassy Seed and weakened Earthquakes to make setup easier. Finally, there are some QCQD sets that have seen use on HO and, while I don't consider them very good, they are a factor that could still be considered. Its main issue is that its STABs don't pair with its existing coverage that well so it can't hit everything it wants to and struggles to make progress at times, but with Regenerator and its solid defensive profile, it should still be able to put in decent work consistently.
 

Monky25

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To encourage more discussion in this thread, the VR team has prepared some discussion points to talk about in case anyone wants to make a post but is unsure what to post about. These can be talked about in addition to making other nominations. Hearing public feedback will help us a lot in making the right decision on these Pokémon.

:Tornadus-Therian: (A+ —> S): Tornadus was one of many Pokémon to get some votes for S rank, but what makes Tornadus stand out is that it got 6/13 votes for S rank, meaning if just one more VR member voted in favor of S, Tornadus would’ve become the sole S rank. Even now, it’s the most favored option at a shot for S rank. With a great variety of sets between Pivot, Assault Vest, and Nasty Plot, Tornadus is extremely splashable onto many teams to fulfill many roles like natural speed control, ground-immune, and an offensive pivot that can become a wincon with Nasty Plot. Its variety of coverage such as Heat Wave, Focus Blast, Taunt, and the somewhat rare Grass Knot allows it to possibly match up well into the entire tier. On paper, it’s got all the makings of a great Pokémon, but there are some flaws that keep it from being S rank. It’s not super bulky without a lot of investment, meaning it can be heavily chipped from moves like Brave Bird when trying to switch into Gapdos’s Close Combat or Ice Spinner from trying to switch into Iron Treads’s Earthquake. Regenerator alleviates this issue to a degree, but it’s still not something that wants to tank hits and take on tons of setup sweepers. It also can suffer from some impactful 4MSS. No Taunt prevents it from beating Skeledirge and general bulky stuff, while lacking Focus Blast gives Hisuian Goodra and Arcanine free entry into it, which are two Pokémon that one does not want to give free turns. Still, its unpredictably and ability to pick its counters can end up in Tornadus’s favor, and the VR team is interested in hearing whether Tornadus-Therian can make the cut for S rank in the future.

:Basculegion-F: (A —> A+): Basculegion-F has been eyed to rise even higher by many members of the VR team due to the sheer power it backs with Adaptability and its great typing. Not much is standing up to the STAB combination that doesn’t get dropped by Ice Beam except for Gastrodon, and its utility as a spinblocker against Quaquaval is exceptional and provides a benefit for many teams that need it. Choice Specs is a nuke, while Choice Scarf is great speed control and still hits hard, being a dangerous threat to offensive teams. Even Substitute + 3 Attacks sets have gone wild throughout UUWC. However, Basculegion’s main flaw is its lack of speed on anything that isn’t Choice Scarf, being outspeed and threatened by a large portion of the metagame that ultimately doesn’t give it many chances to click with Choice Specs. Choice Scarf, while strong, also doesn’t hit as hard and can be played around defensively. It’s a poor user of tera as well since it loses the Adaptability boost. It’s got some defensive utility but is vulnerable to every entry hazard and is generally something you don’t want to take damage. Ultimately, Basculegion is a very strong Pokémon, but it has some very apparent flaws, leaving it up for discussion on whether it should reach the top in A+ or remain in A.

:Kleavor: (A —> A-): Kleavor was a very split vote that ended up with it just barely making A. However, some members of the VR team are unsure of their decision looking back on it. The rise of Chesnaught and what looks to be continued dominance of Iron Treads is irritating for Kleavor as its Choice-locked Stone Axe is less spammable to click. Rapid Spin Quaquaval is coming close to the most used remover as well which is a thorn in Kleavor’s side. Stone Axe’s imperfect accuracy in addition to Kleavor’s Stealth Rock weakness makes it a somewhat unreliable Choice Scarf user which can cause teams to consider other options. Its pivot set sits at an awkward speed tier for a pivot to some extent and generally lacks the sheer splashability of many A rank Pokémon such as Hisuian Goodra, Cyclizar, Iron Treads, and Gastrodon to name a few. Despite the potency Swords Dance sets can provide, Kleavor’s apparent flaws lead the VR team to at least question whether Kleavor belongs in A or if A- is a better fit.

:Tyranitar: (B+ —> ?): Tyranitar has certainly fallen off in the eyes of many since the Home drops have happened, but it’s seen a slight resurgence between Stealth Rock + 3 Attacks sets and Dragon Dance + Taunt; the former compressing Stealth Rock while being a strong offensive Pokemon and the latter taking advantage of defensive Pokemon like Skeledirge. Still, many members of the VR team are unfamiliar regarding Tyranitar’s viability as of now and how it competes as a breaker, sweeper, or hazard setter with many of the tier’s Pokémon. Unlike the other discussion points, there is no growing belief if Tyranitar should rise or drop, but rather we’d like to encourage all around discussion featuring this Pokémon and see what experiences the public playerbase have had with this Pokémon to influence future decisions.

:Slowbro-Galar: (B —> A-/B+): Galarian Slowbro is yet another one of many Pokémon that have fallen under the radar a bit with the recent tier shifts, notably losing out from Meowscarada’s rise as it has less reason to be used. Still, a good number of members believe B may be too harsh of a ranking on Galarian Slowbro. Its standard Calm Mind set still can be a formidable wincon vs a lot of teams with its ability to outlast a lot of foes and spread poisons with Sludge Bomb. Recently, 3 Attacks sets have gotten a bit of consideration, as Calm Mind sets can be stopped by a bit, causing players to rather have their Glowbro go all in with its great coverage and check Pokémon like Galarian Zapdos, Breloom, and Scizor. It still can be a bit awkward to use and it’s something that has less experimentation and usage, so having it as a discussion point can be a way to shed some light on this Pokémon.

:Zarude: (B- —> B+/B, maybe even higher?): Zarude was one of the most notable Pokémon to improve after the tier shifts, being outclassed by Meowscarada and having the potential to rise in usage with it gone thanks to its great traits, but generally wasn’t used and demonstrated enough to warrant a higher placement initially. However, Zarude has been trending in UUWC already and it’s beginning to show off what it can do. The classic Pivot sets can provide an insanely valuable role on Voltturn and BO teams as a way to outright blank all the Ground- and bulky Water-types via offensive pressure and switching in. With the 16 PP Jungle Healing, Zarude can heal itself over time and absorb status even, giving it some good longevity. It also is a rare switch-in to Basculegion’s STAB combo which is helpful for offensive teams especially vs Choice Scarf variants. Swords Dance/Bulk Up sets have been doing well in UUWC as well, acting as a way to set up on and break past most of the metagame with Trailblaze and Terastallization. It can distinguish itself from Iron Leaves in being bulkier, having a better typing, and not having to commit once in as Leaves has to since it relies on the Booster Energy boost a fair bit. All in all, Zarude’s low ranking was largely due to a lack of experimentation and performance, but between its pivot set and setup sets, Zarude has the chance to jump the ranks into a higher viability to possibly reflect its potency. It still is forced to U-turn against a lot of foes and gets walled by a fair amount, especially with the Pivot set, but it was like that last gen and was in the high A ranks regardless, so we’re interested in seeing how everyone else can use this Pokémon.
 

Melt Gibson

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is a Pre-Contributor
FIRST POST HOME VR TIME FOR NOMINATIONS BABY

:tornadus-therian: A+ > S
Absolutely worthy of the spot at the top IMO. Fastest unboosted mon in the meta bar Talonflame, which has noticed a severe fall off in viability as of late. It's absurdly good at making progress, Flying is still one of the best STAB typings in the tier and the coverage is insanely customizable for any situation you may find yourself in. Taunt in combination with Torn-T's blistering speed lets you shut down a lot of random bullshit before it has the chance to get anywhere, and Regenerator in combination with U-Turn means that it can be really difficult to put any meaningful damage onto it, especially considering that it's not frail by any means. The ability to pick your counters can not be understated, especially on a mon that shows up and performs on so many different team styles. You can genuinely slot this pretty much anywhere and it will function to some degree. Extremely consistent, versatile, and reliable on all fronts.

:zapdos-galar: A > A+
I'm aware A+ is a little crowded, but I do think that Zapdos-G deserves to be there. The king of lose-lose situations for your opponent, this thing very often just comes in, threatens to click a STAB move, and it's up to you to hope that you're in your opponent's head enough to guess correctly on which one they're gonna pick. There are very few things that want to switch into either as is, and this ambiguity really adds on to how strong Zapdos is. Thunderous Kick's Defense drop is extremely dangerous in this regard as well; being able to immediately turn something from being a check into not being a check is a valuable asset. Super powerful offensive threat that I think is worthy of a bump.
 

ThatOneApple

A Bit Fruity
is a Community Contributor
Nom time yippeeeeee

My opinions for S ranks have already elaborated in a previous post, anyways...

:Basculegion-F: -> A+
Scary Breaker/Cleaner (depending on specs or scarf) that is only held back by its middling speed stat, Water/Ghost stab already drops so much and ice beam crushes almost anything that its stabs dont. Plenty of good times to come in, such as on rapid spin attempts from :donphan: (and even :iron treads: if youre scarf), :quaquaval:, :slowking:, and probably a few more. Its not limited to choice items either, sub sets can be a terror for teams reliant on dancing around it to get an answer in safely, while agility can be a game ender if used right. Overall feels very deserving of the A+ rank

:Zarude: -> B+
This thing flew waayyyy under everyone's radar due to a certain cat that ruled the tier last month. But now, it can actually shine quite well. There are two sets that ive seen that function well, scarf, and jungle healing set up sets. Scarf is a very solid revenge killer and speed control, threatening the likes of :quaquaval: even after it gets a boost from aqua step, various dragon dance sweepers after theyve been chipped, and other scarfers. Its set up sets take advantage of the decent amount of good switch in opportunities it has, scarf :Basculegion-F: locked into a move that isnt ice beam is a solid time to come in as the best it can do with its stabs is just a small chance to 3hko (252 SpA Adaptability Basculegion-F Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zarude-Dada: 104-123 (29.6 - 35%) -- 15% chance to 3HKO), as well as :slowking:, :quagsire:, :alomomola:, and so on. The set up set can also alternatively run synthesis over jungle healing to provide larger heals but also no status removal, so its kinda whatever fits the team.

:Chesnaught: -> B+
Best spiker setter we have atm (at least in my opinion), beats down all spinners with ease, and can even kinda check :basculegion-F: due to its water resist in conjunction with bulletproof making it immune to shadow ball, whole also providing a good defense against mons like :breloom:, :rillaboom:, :zarude:, :thundurus-therian: (pre tera flying), and the ghost. It can remain healthy throughout the course of the game with synthesis (which is much better now due to much less sandstorm), or force constant chip on the opponent with leech seed and spiky shield. The only moves it needs on every set are body press and spikes, the rest will likely be either the previously mentioned Spiky shield + leech seed, or synthesis + second attack. It does however have issues with :skeledirge:, :zapdos-galar:, and :tornadus-therian:, coming in on it, which leads to it being weird to fit on a team. But still, its traits are very useful and spikes wearing things down can open up holes in teams very well.

Some quick drops/rises that i dont think need that much explanation
:Overqwil: B -> B-
idk what this thing does considering it checks less things with meow gone and iron treads makes it very sad. It spikes i guess but as i said treads makes it very sad.
:Breloom: A- -> A
Literal gremlin to play against, switching into this menace is pain as your switch in is likely gonna get spored, and is probably weak to rock, meaning rock tomb does a ton. Loaded dice bullet seed shreds anything that doesnt resist it and have a good defense stat and mach punch can pick off anything that just barely lived
Fun calcs for reference
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 200-240 (66.8 - 80.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 65-77 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO
Any chip and that torn is dead.
:Hippowdon: A- -> B+
I recognize that this thing does have some defensive utility but god it feels like such a passive blob. It might force things out but i feel like it rarely puts any pressure on the switch in, so they just.... switch, good for gzap but doesnt feel like much else imo.
 
Discussion Points
A+ -> S
I voted for Tornadus-T to be in S during the initial slate and still think it is the closest thing we have to an S rank personally. It is easily one of the most flexible Pokemon within the tier when it comes to the set you choose to run, EV spread, and combination of moves. Nasty Plot sets are very difficult to answer defensively while AV is good for sponging hits from Bascu-F and Hydreigon, getting necessary information and pivoting out. Taunt variants are also great at shutting down both offensive and defensive playstyles. It is a very strong abuser of Tera imo, especially when combined with Regenerator. The Speed tier is naturally faster than basically everything allowing it to force plenty of switches and either fire off a strong hit or pivot with U-turn. I would say Tornadus-T' biggest fault is the fact that most of its spammable coverage isn't accurate and while this is an important factor I personally don't think that is enough to hold it back from that spot.

A
I am a little bit skeptical of raising this mon to A+ though I do agree with Askov that depending on the set (Specs or Scarf) it can run through some matchups. I mostly use Scarf myself and while it does better into those bulky offense matchups I find the drawbacks rather noticeable. There are actually quite an abundant amount of pivots into Bascu like Hoodra, Gastro, Volcanion, Cyclizar, AV Torn, Alolan Muk, Hydreigon, etc. Two of them deter clicking Water STAB entirely. I find that Scarf struggles to reliably get through these especially when you commonly find multiple on the same team. Specs doesn't have this issue as much but you will obviously struggle against faster teams. Imo the effectiveness of Bascu-F feels very matchup dependent based on which set you run, so I feel like I don't always get much value in some games. For me, this makes it hard to see as a reliable A+ threat.

A -> A-
I don't really have too much to say other than I agree it should drop. I've tried using it a lot on a recent VoltTurn offense and it kinda struggles to put in work with how good/common Donphan and bulky spin Quaq are and to a lesser extent Iron Treads (due to CC). Chesnaught is seeing an uptick and Kleavor also doesn't appreciate that. Due to this I think lead Kleavor is kind of awful and would only really opt for pivot or Scarf rn. Both these sets are okay and it is still a relatively threatening Pokemon but a drop feels warranted.

B+ -> B
I like Tyranitar but the only set I think is that good is offensive rocks. You take advantage of its defensive typing to find chances to get hazards up while being threatening enough to some hazard removers though it still has a tough time against Quaq. I tried Choice Band for a bit and while it hits hard there isn't much reason to not just run Harcanine. I also tried Dragon Dance and it just isn't as effective as it was pre shifts. Substitute isn't as necessary with the fall off of Quagsire. Taunt is alright for stuff like Hippowdon + tera Skele but it isn't that great in most other matchups imo. I think the biggest problem is Tyranitar is just too slow after a DD. It needs to get +2 and even then you will find yourself slower than certain Choice Scarfers. Chesnaught is getting more popular as well which just hurts Ttar more too. I feel too much hinders it from shining as it did before and the existence of Harcanine limits its value as an offensive Rock-type.

Idk
I still don't have much of an opinion on Glowbro other than I despise QCQD. I do firmly believe there is some opportunity cost to using it over Slowbro/Slowking with some of the current top mons but it definitely has some favorable matchups, the most notable being Breloom. Perhaps B is too harsh but at the time I kind of wanted to reflect that I believe Slowbro > Glowbro. I don't really rate CM and think most of its value comes from Sludge Bomb. Amuk is a Poison I would rather use personally. I'd be open to it rising one subrank but I am not really on board for A- myself.

probs B/B+ not higher
It is better than B- after testing it again. I originally ran SD + Jungle Healing and I was just not feeling it. After trying Trailblaze variants I'm more open to it being better than I originally believed. Scarf is alright as the main appeal is being faster than +1 Iron Leaves. I think I would put it in B/B+ rather than raise it higher. I still believe it struggles to reliably break with SD and if you are Trailblaze then you're looking for multiple turns to pop off. Between the high amount of defensive pivots (Being tera reliant in most games) + Iron Leaves at least giving it some competition I wouldn't move it into the A ranks.

My noms
B+ -> A-
I think Rillaboom is great mainly because of how good Grassy Terrain is at enabling other Pokemon. Providing recovery for stuff like Hoodra and Tinkaton is great on top of weakening EQ from Donphan and Iron Treads makes it far easier to trade into them. It's easy to pair it with other offensive Grass-types mainly Breloom and Iron Leaves to make them way more threatening. The big one is obviously Hawlucha who I think is really good right now and wouldn't be opposed to rising too. Choice Band is actually a powerful wallbreaker and boots sets are more reliable at providing utility through Drum Beating and U-turn. Taunt is also an alright option on this set, though Protect/Sub/SD is also something I have liked. Choice Scarf is okay though I consider it worse than the other sets. Hoodra is like the main nuisance that doesn't let you spam Wood Hammer on CB but a well-timed Low Lick does a lot or you just get to U-turn.

B -> B-
There just isn't enough for Magnezone to trap and the drop + common presence of Iron Treads is not great for it. Yeah, Choice Specs Flash Cannon hurts it a lot but not being able to click Electric STAB reliably blows. Thundurus-T does the exact same thing in limiting what you can click while Gastrodon is just as good as it was before if not better. Hoodra is also a giant pain to break. You don't reliably check Tornadus-T either. It still has the ability to remove Tink and Scizor unless they tera and switch ofc. To me, it feels like Magnezone solely exists to enable more niche Pokemon like Regidrago and Weavile that don't like the two aforementioned Pokemon.
 

Melt Gibson

lights on me like i'm filming a movie scene
is a Pre-Contributor
B+ -> A-
I think Rillaboom is great mainly because of how good Grassy Terrain is at enabling other Pokemon. Providing recovery for stuff like Hoodra and Tinkaton is great on top of weakening EQ from Donphan and Iron Treads makes it far easier to trade into them. It's easy to pair it with other offensive Grass-types mainly Breloom and Iron Leaves to make them way more threatening. The big one is obviously Hawlucha who I think is really good right now and wouldn't be opposed to rising too. Choice Band is actually a powerful wallbreaker and boots sets are more reliable at providing utility through Drum Beating and U-turn. Taunt is also an alright option on this set, though Protect/Sub/SD is also something I have liked. Choice Scarf is okay though I consider it worse than the other sets. Hoodra is like the main nuisance that doesn't let you spam Wood Hammer on CB but a well-timed Low Lick does a lot or you just get to U-turn.
Just wanted to say that I agree with this and forgot to put it in my post LOL, but everything that Twilight says here is pretty much word for word the points I would have made for this argument. I do consider Scarf to be outright bad as a set, but all of the other items are good and Grassy Terrain makes Rilla one of the best enablers in the tier. Just use Gastrodon as your Ground, I promise you it will not be the end of the world.
 

ThatOneApple

A Bit Fruity
is a Community Contributor
To encourage more discussion in this thread, the VR team has prepared some discussion points to talk about in case anyone wants to make a post but is unsure what to post about. These can be talked about in addition to making other nominations. Hearing public feedback will help us a lot in making the right decision on these Pokémon.

:Tornadus-Therian: (A+ —> S): Tornadus was one of many Pokémon to get some votes for S rank, but what makes Tornadus stand out is that it got 6/13 votes for S rank, meaning if just one more VR member voted in favor of S, Tornadus would’ve become the sole S rank. Even now, it’s the most favored option at a shot for S rank. With a great variety of sets between Pivot, Assault Vest, and Nasty Plot, Tornadus is extremely splashable onto many teams to fulfill many roles like natural speed control, ground-immune, and an offensive pivot that can become a wincon with Nasty Plot. Its variety of coverage such as Heat Wave, Focus Blast, Taunt, and the somewhat rare Grass Knot allows it to possibly match up well into the entire tier. On paper, it’s got all the makings of a great Pokémon, but there are some flaws that keep it from being S rank. It’s not super bulky without a lot of investment, meaning it can be heavily chipped from moves like Brave Bird when trying to switch into Gapdos’s Close Combat or Ice Spinner from trying to switch into Iron Treads’s Earthquake. Regenerator alleviates this issue to a degree, but it’s still not something that wants to tank hits and take on tons of setup sweepers. It also can suffer from some impactful 4MSS. No Taunt prevents it from beating Skeledirge and general bulky stuff, while lacking Focus Blast gives Hisuian Goodra and Arcanine free entry into it, which are two Pokémon that one does not want to give free turns. Still, its unpredictably and ability to pick its counters can end up in Tornadus’s favor, and the VR team is interested in hearing whether Tornadus-Therian can make the cut for S rank in the future.

:Basculegion-F: (A —> A+): Basculegion-F has been eyed to rise even higher by many members of the VR team due to the sheer power it backs with Adaptability and its great typing. Not much is standing up to the STAB combination that doesn’t get dropped by Ice Beam except for Gastrodon, and its utility as a spinblocker against Quaquaval is exceptional and provides a benefit for many teams that need it. Choice Specs is a nuke, while Choice Scarf is great speed control and still hits hard, being a dangerous threat to offensive teams. Even Substitute + 3 Attacks sets have gone wild throughout UUWC. However, Basculegion’s main flaw is its lack of speed on anything that isn’t Choice Scarf, being outspeed and threatened by a large portion of the metagame that ultimately doesn’t give it many chances to click with Choice Specs. Choice Scarf, while strong, also doesn’t hit as hard and can be played around defensively. It’s a poor user of tera as well since it loses the Adaptability boost. It’s got some defensive utility but is vulnerable to every entry hazard and is generally something you don’t want to take damage. Ultimately, Basculegion is a very strong Pokémon, but it has some very apparent flaws, leaving it up for discussion on whether it should reach the top in A+ or remain in A.

:Kleavor: (A —> A-): Kleavor was a very split vote that ended up with it just barely making A. However, some members of the VR team are unsure of their decision looking back on it. The rise of Chesnaught and what looks to be continued dominance of Iron Treads is irritating for Kleavor as its Choice-locked Stone Axe is less spammable to click. Rapid Spin Quaquaval is coming close to the most used remover as well which is a thorn in Kleavor’s side. Stone Axe’s imperfect accuracy in addition to Kleavor’s Stealth Rock weakness makes it a somewhat unreliable Choice Scarf user which can cause teams to consider other options. Its pivot set sits at an awkward speed tier for a pivot to some extent and generally lacks the sheer splashability of many A rank Pokémon such as Hisuian Goodra, Cyclizar, Iron Treads, and Gastrodon to name a few. Despite the potency Swords Dance sets can provide, Kleavor’s apparent flaws lead the VR team to at least question whether Kleavor belongs in A or if A- is a better fit.

:Tyranitar: (B+ —> ?): Tyranitar has certainly fallen off in the eyes of many since the Home drops have happened, but it’s seen a slight resurgence between Stealth Rock + 3 Attacks sets and Dragon Dance + Taunt; the former compressing Stealth Rock while being a strong offensive Pokemon and the latter taking advantage of defensive Pokemon like Skeledirge. Still, many members of the VR team are unfamiliar regarding Tyranitar’s viability as of now and how it competes as a breaker, sweeper, or hazard setter with many of the tier’s Pokémon. Unlike the other discussion points, there is no growing belief if Tyranitar should rise or drop, but rather we’d like to encourage all around discussion featuring this Pokémon and see what experiences the public playerbase have had with this Pokémon to influence future decisions.

:Slowbro-Galar: (B —> A-/B+): Galarian Slowbro is yet another one of many Pokémon that have fallen under the radar a bit with the recent tier shifts, notably losing out from Meowscarada’s rise as it has less reason to be used. Still, a good number of members believe B may be too harsh of a ranking on Galarian Slowbro. Its standard Calm Mind set still can be a formidable wincon vs a lot of teams with its ability to outlast a lot of foes and spread poisons with Sludge Bomb. Recently, 3 Attacks sets have gotten a bit of consideration, as Calm Mind sets can be stopped by a bit, causing players to rather have their Glowbro go all in with its great coverage and check Pokémon like Galarian Zapdos, Breloom, and Scizor. It still can be a bit awkward to use and it’s something that has less experimentation and usage, so having it as a discussion point can be a way to shed some light on this Pokémon.

:Zarude: (B- —> B+/B, maybe even higher?): Zarude was one of the most notable Pokémon to improve after the tier shifts, being outclassed by Meowscarada and having the potential to rise in usage with it gone thanks to its great traits, but generally wasn’t used and demonstrated enough to warrant a higher placement initially. However, Zarude has been trending in UUWC already and it’s beginning to show off what it can do. The classic Pivot sets can provide an insanely valuable role on Voltturn and BO teams as a way to outright blank all the Ground- and bulky Water-types via offensive pressure and switching in. With the 16 PP Jungle Healing, Zarude can heal itself over time and absorb status even, giving it some good longevity. It also is a rare switch-in to Basculegion’s STAB combo which is helpful for offensive teams especially vs Choice Scarf variants. Swords Dance/Bulk Up sets have been doing well in UUWC as well, acting as a way to set up on and break past most of the metagame with Trailblaze and Terastallization. It can distinguish itself from Iron Leaves in being bulkier, having a better typing, and not having to commit once in as Leaves has to since it relies on the Booster Energy boost a fair bit. All in all, Zarude’s low ranking was largely due to a lack of experimentation and performance, but between its pivot set and setup sets, Zarude has the chance to jump the ranks into a higher viability to possibly reflect its potency. It still is forced to U-turn against a lot of foes and gets walled by a fair amount, especially with the Pivot set, but it was like that last gen and was in the high A ranks regardless, so we’re interested in seeing how everyone else can use this Pokémon.
Guess I'll reply to this too just to get my thoughts on this too

:tornadus-therian: Idk
I do agree that this thing is great with its good coverage and speed alongside regen, but the accuracy problem is kinda big and it kinda feels like it can struggle to pick moves. These ups and downs leave me torn (heheheheheeh) on whether or not it should be the big man of the tier.

:Basculegion-F: A -> A+
Already stated opinions here
:Basculegion-F: -> A+
Scary Breaker/Cleaner (depending on specs or scarf) that is only held back by its middling speed stat, Water/Ghost stab already drops so much and ice beam crushes almost anything that its stabs dont. Plenty of good times to come in, such as on rapid spin attempts from :donphan: (and even :iron treads: if youre scarf), :quaquaval:, :slowking:, and probably a few more. Its not limited to choice items either, sub sets can be a terror for teams reliant on dancing around it to get an answer in safely, while agility can be a game ender if used right. Overall feels very deserving of the A+ rank
:Kleavor: A -> A-
This thing just kinda hates the way the meta went. :iron treads: makes it sad as it beats lead sets while keeping rocks off and also makes it so scarf cant just click stone axe for free. Not to mention the fact that its rocks weakness continues to be a pain. Overall yeah id say it should drop.

:Tyranitar: B+ -> B
This thing feels like it struggles to stand out atm. It strongly dislikes the rise of bulky :quaquaval: and :chesnaught: which just come in on it. Banded just feels like most of what it does is done better by :Arcanine-Hisui:, Its too slow to ddance, and imo struggles to even find safe points of entry. There are things that would seem safe to come in on like :tornadus-therian: and :thundurus-therian:, but those pack fighting coverage on the regular and can very easily pivot out, there's :skeledirge: but that can wisp you and make sad. Overall its a struggle for this guy.

:Slowbro-Galar: B -> B+
While meow rising did make it lose one thing it checked, it also made it so this thing doesnt need to run colbur berry, opening up its item to other stuff. Examples being boots for more longevity which is always nice and helmet to get free chip, however one option i thought could be neat was safety goggles for slower balance teams that struggle into :breloom:. Gbro also likes the rise of chesnaught as its just one more point of entry for it.
However, cm sets can struggle a bit with :Arcanine-Hisui:, so id think maybe a 3 attacks slack off set with surf over cm could be solid. Solid mon that i feel people should use more

:Zarude: B- -> B+
Already put opinions on this here
:Zarude: -> B+
This thing flew waayyyy under everyone's radar due to a certain cat that ruled the tier last month. But now, it can actually shine quite well. There are two sets that ive seen that function well, scarf, and jungle healing set up sets. Scarf is a very solid revenge killer and speed control, threatening the likes of :quaquaval: even after it gets a boost from aqua step, various dragon dance sweepers after theyve been chipped, and other scarfers. Its set up sets take advantage of the decent amount of good switch in opportunities it has, scarf :Basculegion-F: locked into a move that isnt ice beam is a solid time to come in as the best it can do with its stabs is just a small chance to 3hko (252 SpA Adaptability Basculegion-F Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zarude-Dada: 104-123 (29.6 - 35%) -- 15% chance to 3HKO), as well as :slowking:, :quagsire:, :alomomola:, and so on. The set up set can also alternatively run synthesis over jungle healing to provide larger heals but also no status removal, so its kinda whatever fits the team.
 
"My nomination"


Skeledirge from A+ to S,

The meta is clearly built around this fiery aligator. Every team is packing some sort of check to it, Which vary from Bulky Quaquavals to Kleavors to Basculegions to Quagsire to Thief Scizor to Tyranitar to people still using Donphan over Treads due to not having fire weaknesses, yet it manages to be the most consistent pokemon in a game to game basis in all of UU, as well as the most used pokémon who did not rose to UU, with the 4th place Donphan gaining new competition.
The reason is that unless you already have a fire or ghost, there's always a good reason to bring Skeledirge. On offensive teams it works wonderfully on the defensive core alongside stuff like Tinkaton or bulky Quaquaval. On Semi-stall teams with the aforementioned alongside stuff like Quagsire, Muk-Alola and Cyclizar, the fact Skeledirge has torch song makes it a great wincon for those styles alongside said Quaquaval.
That flexibility on roles also makes it a great Tera user due to forcing somewhat predictable patterns and being a slow snowball machine when needed, as well as your anchor against stuff like Zapdos-Galar. The moveset it has might be incredibly predictable (Ghost STAB, Torch Song, Slack off and usually Will-o-wisp) making it walled by Hydreigon, Cyclizar, Tyranitar and... Oh wait, only these 3 can resist both shadow ball and torch song, although there's still useful tools like encore or earth power.
Luckily for UU this thing hates knock offs, rock legos and baths despite being an aligator, making it reliant on the benefits Tera provide, making it not a good addition for hyper offense nor a good spinblocker (meaning spinning is not entirely unreliable unlike in OU), although tbf Hyper offense has lost 2 incredibly valuable assets in Greninja and Meowscarada, the former being a Skeledirge check. Also luckily for UU, its pressense is more positive than negative due to having clear counterplay in good pokémon like Cyclizar and Flash cannon Hydreigon, while also giving much needed counterplay to stuff like Galarian Zapdos or Scizor, and back in the early days, Lilligant-Hisui and Iron Hands.

The fact it trives in a meta who is in full Florida mode (I would show Images but they're a bit too extreme for the pokémon fan, who I would imagine tends to love animls... I guess. That would be an interesting poll to make) and forces, just like Florida Aligators, to everyone to play and build around its existance. And honestly, I can't see stuff like that as anything but Textbook definition of S tier, even according to you.
We will actually get art this time
Hosted by Monky25 and Lily


The ranking descriptions for what each rank means and what the characteristics are of Pokemon in these ranks are in the below spoiler:
S and S-: The best of the best Pokemon, being extremely splashable and versatile, having high consistency, and shaping the tier’s development. Their dominance has a notable effect on teambuilding and the dynamics of the tier. S- Pokemon are Pokemon that are a step above the rest of the A+ Pokemon but may not be as centralizing or potent as another S tier. (...)

When nominating changes to happen in this VR PLEASE avoid personal biases and instead use information such as trends working for or against this Pokemon as well as usage to support your claim. Note usage does not always equal viability. There is a correlation, but just because Forretress got more usage last month than Quagsire on the ladder does not mean it is a better Pokemon; tournament usage stats are generally better support for nominations.
Almost every single element checks out for Skeledirge. No one seems to disagree is one of the best pokémon around, is splashable in all non-extreme styles, despite having a singular moveset it can be either a bulky setup sweeper or a reliable wall due to torch song, usually plays a big role in the battle due to having good bulk and recovery while not being passive and is forcing otherwise odd coverage like thief Scizor or Draco meteor cyclizar being the norm to abuse unaware, A lot of sets and EV spreads account for the 8 speed Skeledirge, a lot of tech plays around Skeledirge like goodra-Hisui, Donphan or even Enamorus-T and yet it manages to remain a solid addition to most teams. Again, the textbook mark of S tier.

Also, how could you say no to this face?

... What do you mean this counts as bias?!:pikuh:

PS: I would agree Tornadus T is around the same level due to being tied with Cyclizar to fastest mon available in UU... If it wasn't that people don't seem to care too much about its existance. Cyclizar seems to be the prefered pivot on most teams due to higher consistency and being better against skeledirge. Sadly Tornadus-T seems to fail in the splashability department.
I feel Hisuan Arcanine :Arcanine-Hisui: deserves it more due to how it shaped defensive gameplay in UU in the same way Skeledirge shaped offensive gameplay to play around it, and being the main reason Skeledirge isn't more used on offense due to competition between the two.
That being said, Where Do I find access to the Tournament data? Because the meta is quite new the last 3 weeks and I need it to figure out if my Skeledirge claims are totally or only partially founded.

PPS: OK, apparently and according to tournaments and ladder Tornadus-T, Hisuan Arcanine and Skeledirge seem to deserve the S ranking after Meowscarada and Greninja's departure. Didn't knew Tornadus was THAT popular in tournaments. Seems alright to me, one being damage, one is endurance and one is speed, while not being terrible on the other two departments.
 
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wo chien>A
After meowscarada go, this mon is back as one of the best defensive pokemon. Natural typing works vs basculegion and ground types. And tera chien is still very difficult to defeat and its counters like arcanine and hydreigon dislike knock off. Foul play + tera checks most uu sweepers like gyara scizor etc. This mon was u-turned by greninja and meowscarada but it likes treads and physical sweepers.What this mon do is pretty boring and classical but it still can be a good pick for most teams which is not hyper offense.
 
B-> B+

Chesnaught is one of the goats of defence. He's a great stopgap to mons like Quaq, Breloom, and Scizor (unless some SD tera blast fire joint). While he does lose to mons like torn he can be supported by other team members threatened by Quaq like pre tera dirge and donphan. With spikes and leech seed he can play offense while on defence and can sweep with the Iron Defence Body Press set as well. Overall a mon who likes the meta as is but is bad into most special attackers and Gapdos
 
Well, Now the other suggestions outside that around S tier, with a mostly green tone apparently.

:Kleavor: Kleavor from A to A-. This is a no brainer, Kleavor just isn't fast nor bulky enough to work consistently, and I've noticed it doesn't get as many OHKOs as it would like, nor 85 speed works to make it a consistent scarfer. Is only a lead and even then it feels outclassed at times by Stealth rock Arcanine or U-turn Scizor. Don't get me wrong, Stone axe is amazing, is just that Kleavor is not that impactful at top level.

:Zapdos-Galar: Galarian Zapdos from A to A+. This pokémon is just ridiculously hard to beat without trading because nothing bulky resist flying + fighting. Has survivability issues and is prediction-reliant, but trading 2 for 1 is just worth it on almost any scenario.

:Breloom: Breloom from A- to A. You know the deal by now, a frail, somewhat slow wallbreaker with technician, mach punch and spore. Those tools are as useful as ever, maybe even more so than before due to no longer having to compete with King? Queen? Meowscarada. It has the same issue of either having the chance of surviving hits or guaranteeing Bullet seed's damage, but being a fighting type no flying type wants to switch into due to rock tomb and a grass type no fire type wants to switch into makes it just a surprisingly good mon at its job.

:Hippowdon: Hippowdon from A- to B+. The meta is just unkind to this creature. Lots of earthquake immunities, lots of boots, lack of rapid spin unlike some other ground types and is a bad tera user, not to mention sandstorm kinda limits your teambuilding significantly. Despite having recovery it is somehow mostly outclassed by Donphan and Iron Threads due to how balance became less relevant lately.

:Rillaboom: Rillaboom from B+ to A-. Grassy terrain is just amazing utility against the Donphans, as is knock off, U-turn and being the only viable user of the valuable leech seed. Now that Meowscarada isn't there and there's lots of targets who just get destroyed by wood hammer's 234 Base power, the grass monke finds a good niche to be a good UU pokémon worthy of the A tier.

:Slowbro: Slowbro from B+ to B-. Slowbro has it rough on the higher levels, really rough. Issue 1: Slowking outclasses it in the bulky psychic department almost entirely due to chilly reception. Issue 2: Quaquaval and Gastrodon. As a bulky water type Quaquaval matches better against the current meta due to actually checking Arcanine, Kleavor, Hydreigon and Skeledirge, while Gastrodon with its electric immunity against thundurus and hazard setting capabilities are also a problem. Issue 3: Volcanion has a better attacking typing and steam eruption, a move no one wants to switch into. Issue 4: Galarian Slowking is a better setup sweeper due to sludge bomb + flamethrower and not being weak to U-Turn or electric. All in all, there's not a lot of reason to use Slowbro in UU outside checking Quaquaval and Zapdos somewhat better than Slowking.

:Chesnaught: Chesnaught from B to B+/A-. Spikes + leech seed + spike shield is a set a lot of pokémon don't have a reliable answer to. The passive chip damage while not being passive itself due to Wood Hammer or Body Press. It has only one trick and falls against special attackers in general, but is quite a good one at its role, although I'm not sure if it deserves A- or just B+. Many have mention its talents and I have to agree with them.

:Magnezone: Magnezone from B to B-. Trapping steel types had become increasingly unreliable after the addition of iron treads, while the prevalence of Hisuan Goodra and Scizor as steel types it cannot reliably trap and tera being a thing means is just not very good at its job. To put salt in the wound it needs tera itself to trap most steel types which makes its applications quite niche.

:Pawmot: Pawmot from B to B-. Pawmot is struggling right now to find a place. It's just incredibly difficult to justify your usage when Galarian Zapdos and Thundurus-Therian, who have more power and either bulk or utility, and the speed advantage isn't that relevant considering Iron treads exists. Does that mean the pokémon has no niche? Not really, because it has the tools to be an effective hybrid of revenger killer and offensive support between Ice punch/Seed Bomb, Double Shock, Close Combat, Revival Blessings and 105 speed, as well as cheeky tactics like nuzzle or encore, is just that it struggles to find usage in most teams.

:Tauros-Paldea-Aqua: Aqua Tauros from B to B-. Is in the same realm as Pawmot. Is a mon I know personally due to usage and I know its niche; is a water type for balance teams who can reliably check Arcanine due to higher speed and psychical bulk, while also being an assurance against screens and a danger due to bulk up. Is useful but outside of that it's outclassed by Quaquaval's aqua step. Is also oftentimes just investing to outspeed Breloom, to the point I wonder if it's even worth using it over a speedy Quaquaval who is stronger and can outspeed Breloom anyways. Bulk is useful but not enough to justify using it over better fighting types most of the time considering is outclassed in other areas.

:Wo-Chien: Wo-Chien from B to C+. Outside live reactions, What is this thing exactly doing in UU? Yes, it has Knock off, but so does Tinkaton, the two donphans, Muk, Cyclizar and Rillaboom, each one having a valuable niche as well to be used over Wo-Chien like fairy/steel type, rapid spin, Toxic or u-turn. Leech seed is great, but also something Rillaboom offers while having better recovery and offensive pressence due to grassy terrain. It has great defensive stats but that isn't gonna help you against the many powerful wallbreakers and setup sweepers without offensive pressense or more reliable recovery, specially with that tera reliance due to how bad dark/grass is on defense, and Zarude existing makes things just harder for the snail being in your team outside stall who is fading btw. Speaking of Zarude...

:Zarude-Dada: Zarude from B- to B+. This pokémon is just a menace. After the tier lost Meowscarada and Greninja, this is now the fastest dark and grass type around, with a moveset you just can't predict. While in the previous UU it was mostly an offensive pivot, nowadays the way to go seems to be setup sweeper thanks to the new access to swords dance and trailblaze, while it still has the old tricks under its sleeves like fast U-Turn, jungle healing, bulk up and taunt to setup more reliably or pivot. Just a good pokémon if you need a dark type who outspeeds Thundurus-T and has grass/fighting coverage, although its several weaknesses keep it in check and outside A rank for now. Again, another pokémon mentioned quite a lot that I agree with.

Sadly I have not a lot of Info about the C tier due to how niche they are and therefore not knowing how they perform in battle.

And finally, the most important things...
  1. You should update the showdown link to go here instead of the old VR.
  2. I think a Quaquaval vs Skeledirge art would fit here the best. They have a clear rivalry due to being paldean starters and are also some of the best UU pokémon around. That alongside a Donphan vs Iron Threads could fit here amazingly for obvious reasons. Maybe in some sort of Battle royal motiff with each one facing the otter other, or maybe putting them in a double battle portrait like the XY anime when a mayor battle started, with Skeledirge&Iron Treads (New) vs Quaquaval&Donphan (Old).
PS: Now I have a better image of the C tier so I can make suggestions from there. Also some minor editing.

:Mimikyu: Mimikyu from B to C+. Another pokémon who just struggles to find a role. Is slower than Hydreigon and Zapdos, is quite weak and it relies a lot on disguise to work, and even at +2 it isn't OHKOing that much considering Shadow claw fails to 2HKO Hisuan Arcanine. The only thing it's good at is checking stall for HO teams, and even then they're likely to pack Skeledirge precisely for pokémon like Mimikyu. At least is better at spinblocking than Zoroark and Gengar due to disguise.

:Bellibolt: Bellibolt from C+ to C. The pokémon just is completely unremarkable. It's trying to be a defensive electric type with slack off and parabolic charge with muddy water and volt switch to pivot and hit ground, which is neat but not very practical when the tier just check it naturally due to how passive it is outside the charged moves and how good grass types are atm, while being slower than Donphan alongside weak to its earthquake is just a recipee for disaster. There's a reason it had 0 usage in the last tournament, and I would be tempted to say outright unranked if it wasn't due to Quaquaval and Tornadus-T existing.

:Brambleghast: Brambleghast from C to C+. This pokémon has an oddly good niche when looking with a keen eye. This pokémon is both a spinner, a spike setter and a spinblocker who can actually beat most spinners unlike most ghost types, and has a very useful Hurricane immunity against the popular Tornadus-T, as well as arguably the best recovery move in strenght sap. Yeah, it fears Ice spinner and strong knock offs and is not precisely strong at all, but its utility talents are quite useful for semi-stall teams to not lose to the evil lego pieces after having to sponge multiple knock offs.

:Rotom-Heat: Rotom-Heat from C to C+. The niche of Rotom-Heat is small but worth mentioning. Is mostly a fire type who scares slower water types and an electric type who can switch against grass, ice and ground moves due to better bulk. Is quite specific but it sees some tournament sucess because some balance and volturn teams do appreciate their fire type to pivot with volt switch and being able to check Tornadus-T and some water types. It needs further testing to move up from C rank though.

:Rotom-Mow: Rotom-Mow from C to unranked. The tier has lots of high quality grass types, many of which have u-turn. The tier also has Thundurus-T as an electric type. Finally, lots of fire types who destroy most grass types. What I'm going to is that every niche I can think off for Rotom-Mow it gets outclassed at. Why do I want my electric type to be outsped by Arcanine and Zapdos? Why do I want a grass/electric when grass is already good against water and ground, specially one who cannot really spam its grass STAB? Why do I want a nasty plot sweeper who gets destroyed by the most common unaware mon in the tier? Even the few niche things it has going for are performed better by Rotom-Heat and Hisuan ELECTRODE. I just see nothing other can't do better, therefore is not a mon worth rating.
 
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:Brambleghast:

C ---> C+

I have been messing around with Brambleghast (mostly because I find Wind Rider interesting) and its viability is definitely a bit higher with how good Torn-T is. You're immune to hurricane, bleakwind, heat wave, and focus blast, fearing only the niche tera ice. I don't think any higher than C+ is appropriate, but blanking Torn+Breloom + offering some unique utility like Spin + Spikes + Strength Sap mean it's not as hard to build with as it was in July. Additionally, Wo-Chien has cratered in viability (I think I have seen maybe two in the entire month of August) is a huge plus for Brambleghast. An extremely niche interaction I experienced is that Wind Rider provides a blizzard immunity, meaning you don’t really fear rotom-F (which I have bumped into occasionally on the ladder).


Edit - did not read Eelstaraga’s post but I agree with the Bramble nom.
 
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:Brambleghast:

C ---> C+

I have been messing around with Brambleghast (mostly because I find Wind Rider interesting) and its viability is definitely a bit higher with how good Torn-T is. You're immune to hurricane, bleakwind, heat wave, and focus blast, fearing only the niche tera ice. I don't think any higher than C+ is appropriate, but blanking Torn+Breloom + offering some unique utility like Spin + Spikes + Strength Sap mean it's not as hard to build with as it was in July. Additionally, Wo-Chien has cratered in viability (I think I have seen maybe two in the entire month of August) is a huge plus for Brambleghast. An extremely niche interaction I experienced is that Wind Rider provides a blizzard immunity, meaning you don’t really fear rotom-F (which I have bumped into occasionally on the ladder).


Edit - did not read Eelstaraga’s post but I agree with the Bramble nom.
I forgot Heat wave was called "Heated wind" in Japan, and I somehow missed the wind in "BleakWIND Storm" as well, so indeed it somehow walls the popular Tornadus-T outside a puny U-turn or random tera blast everyone gets beaten by anyways. No wonder why It saw tournament usage even when Meowscarada was so popular.
 
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tbh I'm bored so noms, be warned these r going to be very rambly and informal

Rises
:tornadus-therian: A+ -> S - What I consider to be the absolute best mon in the meta by a large margin as well as the most broken. Hella splashable by virtue of the speed tier and typing in tandem w Regen. Functions as a really nice pivot w very respectable coverage and some degree of customization w item choice and moves to accommodate any given team. HDB Taunts hella good at shutting down fat shit and in particular owns Dirge w relative ease, Rocky Helmet dumpsters Gzap and Maus and is generally good at securing good chip vs most physical mons worst case so you can rk with prio. Even AV which I initially wasn't sold on is acc a very nice blanket check to a number of mons if a team needs it. That said, none of these r why I actually think Torn is an S tier mon. The "broken set" in my opinion is any variation of Nasty Plot Torn. NP Torn really doesn't have ideal long term counterplay when its so ridiculously easy to repeatedly regen it to outlast all of its checks while boasting a very obnoxious speed tier. Special shoutout to that broken Terablast Ground set running around. Taunts also a v strong option on NP and dumpsters stuff like Scream Tail trying to Encore you. It should be noted that you're usually using a lot of super inaccurate moves and there are cases where you need to land them like Focus Blast v HK9 which does hamper its consistency a bit, but if there's any mon that can afford a few misses its Torn when it goes from 10% back to full in the blink of an eye.

:Goodra-Hisui: A -> A+ - Might be a hot-ish take might not idk but think this mon is best steel in the tier and one of my personal fav mons to use. Dialga Mini just has so much raw bulk on it to blanket check so much while being able to hit respectably hard w solid coverage and most importantly Dtail things around. Phasings crazy on this mon and it just enables you to farm a lot of offensive stuff hard. Dtail is also super threatening when paired with Fsight (Which we have very convinient access to rn). Hazards also get a shout for being hella toxic to deal w if Goodra can get the Dtails going. While the lack of recovery does make it chippable the mon its generally not going to be an easy mon to take down either and usually you get more than enough value out of the mon on a game to game basis. Hisuian Goodra is just consistently useful to the point where I'd consider it a step above the A tier.
TLDR; Dialga Mini statchecks every1 and Dtails a real bitch

:Gyarados: B+ -> A- - This mons still piss annoying ngl and a lot of teams just get farmed if they aren't Tera'ing their dirge into asap (If they do you can usually build to punish anyhow) or stacking a lot of prio. It's also just really easy to set up w the Quaquaval spam as well as being able to function as a Scizor check on offense. Hisuian Goodra walls the prehome set but EQ is a pretty viable option on it rn. H-Goodra in general completely mauls a lot of super offensively inclined teams and being able to drop a +1 EQ on it can be huge. Granted this does generate a bit of 4MMS and u still need to Tera to beat stuff like Chester but I think a rise is warranted regardless tbh its a good cheeser and is hard to justify not using on most HOs.

:Zarude: B- -> A- - Very drastic increase so I can understand a lot of ppl wanting to be more liberal w the rise but idgaf monkeys evil. Some important things to note are that with the general decline of status and especially Sand, you can actually afford to just run Synthesis over Jungle Healing, like obv Slowking Chilly is annoying but the extra 25% is soo good and you generally go unpunished for greeding w it. As far as specific sets go, Pivots still pretty serviceable even if it struggles to make immediate progress, Scarf I don't love but imo is a fine option, but the huge thing for it is the set up sets. Trailblaze set up sets can get out of hand very fast late game just off of the stupid good natural bulk on the mon which only gets amplified further by Tera. Access to SD also gives it pretty threatening immediate breaking power, though I think BU is still fine on Trailblaze cause it makes RK'ing with priority so much harder. Super Fat BU is also kind of insane and while the initial damage output is 0, it can also be nightmarishly difficult to actually break it once it gets going. Also worth noting that its one of the best actual answers to p much every Legion set even w Ice Beam in the equation.

:Chesnaught: B -> B+ - Our spiker situation is dire and Chesnaught just so happens to have the move along w a respectable enough defensive profile. Bulletproof is actually a sick ability with a pretty nice amount of viable applications in particular into stuff like Legion and Thundy. Only reason I can't see this mon going any higher is cause letting in Dirge and especially broken TornT on your spike is not exactly what u want to see. That said, still think its a good mon that serves a pretty relevant role as a spiker that dumpsters our relevant spinners.

:Slowbro-Galar: B -> B+ - Lumping Glowbro w shitters like Talon and Overqwil on the initial slate was absurd hating. I don't have too much to say other than that he's just a good option w a great ability, movepool, and typing. With Meow out of the tier I think Shuca CM Surfs a pretty cool option as uve now got the room to expose your other checks, though boots r also completely fine and valid. NP is also v fire and can be pretty scary given that it has the bulk to trade easily into offense if its healthy. Being able to fish for sludge poisons on switch ins w fthrower to chip down Tink/Treads is also piss annoying.

:Lokix: C+ -> B- - Bug looks like a bit of a meme at first glance but I think it's a serviceable mon and at least better than shitters like Braviary. CBs unviable garbage but Silver Powder is not really awful (Well maybe a bit awful to fit on teams.) Tlens Fimp is just a genuinely useful tool and Leech Life gives it more longevity than you'd expect a frail rocks weak mon to have. Feel like it just generally does OK into most of the current meta trends w stuff like Talon being in the gutter as it stands.

:Weavile: C+ -> B- - It's a fun dedicated lead w the old SS Beat Up set and SD Terablast Electric is a respectable sweeper w Shard for scarf Gzap and the wonderful above TornT speed tier. It's admittedly hella annoying to deal w Quaq w/o burning your Tera and HK9 can still RK with espeed but I think the mons still decent enough to warrant a modest raise.

Drops
:Cyclizar: A ->
A- - Just feels like it generally struggles more these days. The defensive profile just doesn't feel that good when so many mons are packing super effective coverage for you or will hit you on your rather sad physical side. Feels like an overall less consistent consistent spinner and less consistent answer to most spatkers than it did pre home. KnockTurn + Regen w the movepool options it does prevents me from dropping it any further but mon feels pretty mid and makes its way onto a lot less teams. Though I will say w the avrg speed of the tier falling off post meow/gren you could probably make something more offensive work, the tie with torn is admittedly p sucky though.

:Kleavor: A -> A- - Iunno if he should've been there in the first place. I think Kleavors by all means a fine mon but A is a bit excessive for its place in the meta. HDBs the way I'd run it more often than not rn and I think it's pretty good, just a super scary breaker and can do it while upping, nice to free up slots on other mons. Ofc natural problem is the w/e speed tier coupled with w/e bulk. Drops warranted, I don't have too much to say.

:Hippowdon: A- -> B+ - 2Abusable4Me. Hippo has some decent use cases still but I find it to be very rarely be a great option outside of specific circumstances, at least not enough of them to be in the A subranks as it stands w its passivity issues imo.

:Quagsire: B+ -> B - Has some good traits (wooo toxic) but I am regrettably in the Quag is ass camp. Feels way too hard to fit this mon and even when you do its going to be prone to getting abused by a fair few amount of mons. Stats are also somewhat lacklustre and it has a tendency to show vs a lot of breakers. Just don't think he's very splashable at all on more solid structures and can be a bit of a shitter in game.

:Magnezone: B -> B-/C+ - Don't really see the incentive to use this mon. Doesn't really enable anything w a high enough reward to justify the team slot and while there's existent positives to using it, more often than not I'd rather just not. I think Sylvs a good mon but mags bad w it now imo given that as it stands Sylv isnt really prone to running away w games in the same way it did pre home w zone support and more than anything its just good for being a fat fairy with wish now. Something like scarf drago is probably the most justifiable use for zone but I have not been impressed at all w any zone team.

:Overqwil: B -> B-/C+ - Post Meow meta defensive sets feel atrocious. It really doesn't keep up w most physical attackers long enough, we lost one of its prime targets to abuse, and finally we also have a relevant spinner that you can't click tox on. Intim inflating your bulk is by all means nice but the typing is pretty bare bones on the physical side and the lack of recovery is pretty rough. Overqwil is such a fire name but unfortunately its p ass. Lowkey best way to use it atp is offensive swift swim but that may be smoking crack.

Honorable Mentions
:hariyama: :hoopa: :oricorio-pom-pom: :Palossand: :Rotom-Frost:
Think these r all viable to some capacity (Maybe ori more than the others,,) but CBA to make any UR noms rn so just giving them a brief mention in case anyone else has any experience and would b willing to drop a nom in my place :3

also brambles dix
 
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:tornadus-therian: A+ -> S
Torn is the best mon in the tier rn, it's great speed tier and solid natural bulk combined with regenerator allows it to check mons like quaquaval and scizor while also having great survivability long term, and nasty plot sets have very limited counterplay, currently the most defining metagame presence in my opinion.

:skeledirge: A+ -> S
I'm less sold on this one but I really think this is the strongest defensive presence in the tier rn, and one of the first things you have to account for in the builder. The most obvious sign of the centralising effect this mon has on the tier is just how far people are going to speed creep opposing dirges with it, but also how many other mons are aiming to outspeed a fast dirge. I also think it's way more versatile than it's made out to be and I often find myself playing around with different ev spreads and moveset choices depending on the teammates it's paired with, it's capable of checking so much of the meta but it gets even better when you specialise it's role as much as possible.

:tinkaton: A+ -> A
Tink is still really good but the prevalence of treads rn makes it far worse as a rocker, and while there are a lot of mons that it can stave off in the short term A+ just feels a bit high for it, it's a decent rocker/check to special attackers on offense and not much else.

:iron treads: A -> A+
In spite of some defensive flaws I think treads is one of the best mons in the tier rn, the combination of eq knock off and ice spinner is just really hard to switch into coming off a mon with a really nice speed tier in the current meta. It's also quite consistent as a spinner, normally either forcing a spin or a ko vs offense, although it can struggle into a lot of the chesnaught balances atm. Even in mus like this its knock off can be incredibly valuable though and chesnaught can give oppurtunities to mons like torn t and gapdos.

:gyarados: B+ -> A-
Gyara is one of the most threatening sweepers in the tier rn and has quite a bit of set diversity, with waterfall eq ice fang seeing some usage with tera ground and being very difficult to wall, as well as sub/taunt dd tera blast flying. Both of these are very difficult to reliably answer without a way of revenge killing it at +1.

:quagsire: B+ -> B/B-
I feel like quagsire has always been a mon carried by it's ability, and as uu has progressed quag's unaware has just got less and less impressive. The reality is quag can't stand up to any of the top set up sweepers in the current meta other than quaquaval, and while the combination of toxic and hazards while walling h arc is pretty good on paper, in practise it's just a passive blob rn and there's very little reason to use it over other unaware mons (skeledirge) or other defensive ground types (hippo, gastrodon).

:chesnaught: B -> A-
Chesnaught balances are really solid rn in large part due to chesnaughts ability not only to set spikes reliably vs the spinners in the tier but also check some annoying balance breakers like breloom, kleavor, and even both forms of thundurus to some extent. While it can be taken advantage of by some of the best mons in the tier the teams it finds itself on are built around having a solid defensive core that can answer them.

:slowbro-galar: B -> B+
Glowbro is pretty good, it can be used as either a facilitator of it's teammates sweeping by removing common checks to them or you can use other mons to lure things in the way of a cm glowbro sweep, it's not amazing but it's a pretty real threat which feels far more comparable to other B+ rank mons than it does to the B ranks.
 

Lily

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I'll have a bit to say about other noms later but for now before bed I just want to mention why I don't think Tornadus should ever be S rank.

When I think of S rank I think of Pokemon that are reliable and consistent. And when I look at the definition, it agrees with me:

S and S-: The best of the best Pokemon, being extremely splashable and versatile, having high consistency, and shaping the tier’s development. Their dominance has a notable effect on teambuilding and the dynamics of the tier. S- Pokemon are Pokemon that are a step above the rest of the A+ Pokemon but may not be as centralizing or potent as another S tier.

Tornadus does not have this.

It rules over the builder, sure absolutely, but Tornadus is the very opposite of a consistent Pokemon. The only moves it commonly runs with 100% accuracy are U-turn (lol) and Tera Blast, while its STABs are either 80% or 70% accurate depending on which you use, and its coverage isn't much better between Focus Blast at 70% and Heat Wave at an admittedly decent 90%. Now obviously you all know that Tornadus misses moves, and it's still a great Pokemon despite that, but it means that making truly reliable gameplans with Tornadus teams is essentially impossible. It also means that a lot of Torn's impressive feats aren't that impressive; sure, it's strong enough to 2HKO Gastrodon with +2 Hurricane, but you have a 49% chance of hitting those two Hurricanes to begin with, so it's really not that impressive on its own.

I think Pokemon that are much more consistent belong in the S rank - historically we've had Tinkaton there, for example, and Sandy Shocks, both of which were very reliable in what they did. They didn't have to rely on hitting inaccurate moves or pulling off lures. Nowadays we do have some hallmarks of consistency like Skeledirge and Tinkaton, and we have stuff like HArcanine which is of course using Head Smash but at least has a strong backup STAB that doesn't miss.

I think Tornadus's accuracy problems are extremely fundamental in evaluating its performance within the tier; a Tornadus that hits all its moves is the most broken thing we have, but it just won't do that more than once in a blue moon. It's the definition of inconsistent and that alone keeps it locked to A+ to me. It's an enormous threat but just isn't reliable in the way an S rank should be.
 

ThatOneApple

A Bit Fruity
is a Community Contributor
I'll have a bit to say about other noms later but for now before bed I just want to mention why I don't think Tornadus should ever be S rank.

S and S-: The best of the best Pokemon, being extremely splashable and versatile, having high consistency, and shaping the tier’s development. Their dominance has a notable effect on teambuilding and the dynamics of the tier. S- Pokemon are Pokemon that are a step above the rest of the A+ Pokemon but may not be as centralizing or potent as another S tier.

Tornadus does not have this.

It rules over the builder, sure absolutely, but Tornadus is the very opposite of a consistent Pokemon. The only moves it commonly runs with 100% accuracy are U-turn (lol) and Tera Blast, while its STABs are either 80% or 70% accurate depending on which you use, and its coverage isn't much better between Focus Blast at 70% and Heat Wave at an admittedly decent 90%. Now obviously you all know that Tornadus misses moves, and it's still a great Pokemon despite that, but it means that making truly reliable gameplans with Tornadus teams is essentially impossible. It also means that a lot of Torn's impressive feats aren't that impressive; sure, it's strong enough to 2HKO Gastrodon with +2 Hurricane, but you have a 49% chance of hitting those two Hurricanes to begin with, so it's really not that impressive on its own.

I think Pokemon that are much more consistent belong in the S rank - historically we've had Tinkaton there, for example, and Sandy Shocks, both of which were very reliable in what they did. They didn't have to rely on hitting inaccurate moves or pulling off lures. Nowadays we do have some hallmarks of consistency like Skeledirge and Tinkaton, and we have stuff like HArcanine which is of course using Head Smash but at least has a strong backup STAB that doesn't miss.

I think Tornadus's accuracy problems are extremely fundamental in evaluating its performance within the tier; a Tornadus that hits all its moves is the most broken thing we have, but it just won't do that more than once in a blue moon. It's the definition of inconsistent and that alone keeps it locked to A+ to me. It's an enormous threat but just isn't reliable in the way an S rank should be.
yeah the accuracy issue is what kept me from nomming torn to S

Its great at filling roles but it never felt consistent enough at them. As it only really fits said roles about 70% of the time (probably lower, focus blast is lying to you), so while taunt is a pain in the ass for slower teams, it rarely breaks due to the accuracy. It can be scary with plot, but once again, the accuracy hinders consistency. Im probably just saying exactly what youve said, but you did kinda cover the issues that keep torn from S for me.
 
I'll have a bit to say about other noms later but for now before bed I just want to mention why I don't think Tornadus should ever be S rank.

When I think of S rank I think of Pokemon that are reliable and consistent. And when I look at the definition, it agrees with me:

S and S-: The best of the best Pokemon, being extremely splashable and versatile, having high consistency, and shaping the tier’s development. Their dominance has a notable effect on teambuilding and the dynamics of the tier. S- Pokemon are Pokemon that are a step above the rest of the A+ Pokemon but may not be as centralizing or potent as another S tier.

Tornadus does not have this.

It rules over the builder, sure absolutely, but Tornadus is the very opposite of a consistent Pokemon. The only moves it commonly runs with 100% accuracy are U-turn (lol) and Tera Blast, while its STABs are either 80% or 70% accurate depending on which you use, and its coverage isn't much better between Focus Blast at 70% and Heat Wave at an admittedly decent 90%. Now obviously you all know that Tornadus misses moves, and it's still a great Pokemon despite that, but it means that making truly reliable gameplans with Tornadus teams is essentially impossible. It also means that a lot of Torn's impressive feats aren't that impressive; sure, it's strong enough to 2HKO Gastrodon with +2 Hurricane, but you have a 49% chance of hitting those two Hurricanes to begin with, so it's really not that impressive on its own.

I think Pokemon that are much more consistent belong in the S rank - historically we've had Tinkaton there, for example, and Sandy Shocks, both of which were very reliable in what they did. They didn't have to rely on hitting inaccurate moves or pulling off lures. Nowadays we do have some hallmarks of consistency like Skeledirge and Tinkaton, and we have stuff like HArcanine which is of course using Head Smash but at least has a strong backup STAB that doesn't miss.

I think Tornadus's accuracy problems are extremely fundamental in evaluating its performance within the tier; a Tornadus that hits all its moves is the most broken thing we have, but it just won't do that more than once in a blue moon. It's the definition of inconsistent and that alone keeps it locked to A+ to me. It's an enormous threat but just isn't reliable in the way an S rank should be.
While I understand what you're saying here I disagree on how it applies to torn. To me the fundamental problem with low accuracy moves is not that they miss, it's how much a pokemon is punished for a miss. For example, if I go for focus blast with a fast frail attacker and promptly get okhod by tyranitar after a miss, then I've been massively punished, and the attacker in question is not consistent. To me, the difference between tornadus and this other hypothetical pokemon is the times where you're punished for a miss are far fewer than the times where you can recover from it. Of course this is very set and match up dependent, but I think taunt can go a long way to splitting the difference here. Why would I try to 2hko the gastrodon after nasty plot when I can attack as it switches in and then taunt it to prevent recovery/hazards? In the event where I'm np 3a torn, I'll normally just go to something that can take advantage of the gastrodon. Of course it's easier to say this than it is to do in practise but in my experience there are far more "no drawback" clicks (ie the result of a miss is a minor loss of momentum or your opponent forcing a minor concession from you such as a spike going up) than there are potentially game ending turns. This is further helped by regenerator allowing torn to come back from very low health if played well. I really think that if bleakwind hits 80% of the time in your game then torn is still an incredibly consistent mon and while a tornadus that hits only 50% of its moves isn't very consistent, it won't do that more than once in a blue moon. I do think it's trickier to evaluate focus blast, partially cos it's kinda droppable but also because you can end up relying on it in game deciding scenarios moreso than with bleakwind in my experience, but to me the latter part doesn't take away from the overall consistency of torn in the meta.
 

Melt Gibson

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While I understand what you're saying here I disagree on how it applies to torn. To me the fundamental problem with low accuracy moves is not that they miss, it's how much a pokemon is punished for a miss. For example, if I go for focus blast with a fast frail attacker and promptly get okhod by tyranitar after a miss, then I've been massively punished, and the attacker in question is not consistent. To me, the difference between tornadus and this other hypothetical pokemon is the times where you're punished for a miss are far fewer than the times where you can recover from it. Of course this is very set and match up dependent, but I think taunt can go a long way to splitting the difference here. Why would I try to 2hko the gastrodon after nasty plot when I can attack as it switches in and then taunt it to prevent recovery/hazards? In the event where I'm np 3a torn, I'll normally just go to something that can take advantage of the gastrodon. Of course it's easier to say this than it is to do in practise but in my experience there are far more "no drawback" clicks (ie the result of a miss is a minor loss of momentum or your opponent forcing a minor concession from you such as a spike going up) than there are potentially game ending turns. This is further helped by regenerator allowing torn to come back from very low health if played well. I really think that if bleakwind hits 80% of the time in your game then torn is still an incredibly consistent mon and while a tornadus that hits only 50% of its moves isn't very consistent, it won't do that more than once in a blue moon. I do think it's trickier to evaluate focus blast, partially cos it's kinda droppable but also because you can end up relying on it in game deciding scenarios moreso than with bleakwind in my experience, but to me the latter part doesn't take away from the overall consistency of torn in the meta.
This is probably the best rebuttal that there is to the "Hurricane/Bleakwind are too inconsistent" argument. (I know, me? Agreeing with Liz? Completely? Crazy shit.) There are so few times where Tornadus is actually punished for missing that it feels like a moot point. Regenerator oftentimes makes getting meaningful chip such an insurmountable task that clicking moves is generally really easy to do for the Tornadus player. Also, Grass Knot is there and pretty viable in terms of 100% acc moves Torn runs.

Anyways, like Liz said, Taunt, Nasty Plot, U-Turn, and Torn's coverage and speed tier are so effective at limiting options that you don't really end up in that many situations where a missed Hurricane or Bleakwind becomes extremely dire. It's just things that are small amounts of push and pull that, in the grand scheme of things, are fairly normal occurrences that would happen regardless. It's unfortunate, sure, but doesn't equate to inconsistency in the way I think you're presenting it.
 

ThatOneApple

A Bit Fruity
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This is probably the best rebuttal that there is to the "Hurricane/Bleakwind are too inconsistent" argument. (I know, me? Agreeing with Liz? Completely? Crazy shit.) There are so few times where Tornadus is actually punished for missing that it feels like a moot point. Regenerator oftentimes makes getting meaningful chip such an insurmountable task that clicking moves is generally really easy to do for the Tornadus player. Also, Grass Knot is there and pretty viable in terms of 100% acc moves Torn runs.
My issue with torn is that while it is very consistent at applying pressure, it becomes inconsistent when it comes to situations where it needs to actually LAND its moves. This is most applicable in late game scenarios, where you need to actually pick off the things you were pressuring earlier, and in scenarios where the torn user cannot afford to miss in order to avoid losing there and then. Examples of each scenario include pressuring out a banded zapdos early and mid game, but when it comes to a later point in the game where you need to actually get the kill, inconsistency starts to show unless you have a dominating lead imo. And for scenarios where the torn player is losing and needs to land a hit, say you need to land a hit on a scary sweeper to be able to pick it off, but missing is a loss right there and then, torn's inconsistency can show.

I probably didnt give the best examples, but the point im trying to make is that torn is consistent in situations where applying pressure is good enough, such as early/mid game scenarios or when the torn user has the upper hand, but in end game scenarios or when the torn user is in a disadvantage, it becomes the most painful thing to have to use ever.

Just my opinions of torn's potential inconsistencies, def a great mon but there are situations where its downsides became painful
 
I mean, Tornadus was S- back in ORAS OU back when it had to rely on Hurricane instead of Bleakwind, so having to rely on a low-accuracy STAB doesn’t hold precedence for keeping Torn out of S.

0F2C4AB7-3D54-4FFE-8234-4743ACF22659.jpeg

“Oh but that Torn had Knock Off” yeah I know, but I’m not trying to compare metas here since we’re assuming as a baseline that Torn has S-rank traits on paper for this meta, I’m just talking about the idea that Torn’s accuracy is enough to keep it out of S, which is… imo kind of silly when as people have mentioned it really comes down to how hard you can punish it for missing to begin with, and Torn has solid bulk, an elite speed tier, a pivoting move, Regenerator, and even Tera to fall back on if it needs to. If anything, Tornadus is actually one of the most consistent Pokémon in the tier and not just in the builder, at least in my opinion.
 
I mean, Tornadus was S- back in ORAS OU back when it had to rely on Hurricane instead of Bleakwind, so having to rely on a low-accuracy STAB doesn’t hold precedence for keeping Torn out of S.

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“Oh but that Torn had Knock Off” yeah I know, but I’m not trying to compare metas here since we’re assuming as a baseline that Torn has S-rank traits on paper for this meta, I’m just talking about the idea that Torn’s accuracy is enough to keep it out of S, which is… imo kind of silly when as people have mentioned it really comes down to how hard you can punish it for missing to begin with, and Torn has solid bulk, an elite speed tier, a pivoting move, Regenerator, and even Tera to fall back on if it needs to. If anything, Tornadus is actually one of the most consistent Pokémon in the tier and not just in the builder, at least in my opinion.
I don't think we should ever compared this to begin with. Outside of the fact that Tornadus-T indeed had Knock Off back in the days it was also imo way better vs a shit ton of things of the metagame and had tools to mess around vs a ton of checks. Sure Knock Off was valuable but Superpower was great to smack Steel-types and overall a better option than Focus Blast since you were able to ensure damages on foes. Hidden Power was also key af.
I agree that Tornadus-T is one of the best Pokémon in the tier but I'm not entirely sure it deserves the S spot in the current metagame. I think too many things can dent it / have coverage to mess over its Flying-type. Accuracy is smth we should take into account when the best tool of Tornadus-T are respectively 80% and 70% accuracy STAB.

I will maybe make another post later to talk about other nominations I (dis)agree with.
 
:hippowdon: A- to B+: People have harped on and on about the meta being unkind to it and I agree. It's a lot more offensive pre-home and Hippo just feels incredibly passive by comparison. Even with Slack Off and Roar so many things are able to take advantage of it, be it Hippo being unable to do anything back to them or scaring it out. The aforementioned power creep also makes its bulk less impressive, and having to compete with the more offensive Donphan and Iron Treads is insult to injury

:magnezone: B to B-, possibly C+: Literally only able to trap Tinkaton, who's become a bit less common as of late. Scizor can pivot out with U-Turn and hit it with CC while Treads just straight up bends it. Bisharp is also an unmon so that doesn't count. It brings very little to the table outside of steel trapping, which it's barely able to do rn. Also being Tera reliant hurts it, just let this poor thing drop to RU plsthx

:cyclizar: A to A-: Genuinely surprised this guy hasn't been discussed more, Cyclizar has a similar issue to Hippowdon in that power creep makes it harder to justify. If you use Cyclizar you lose the ability to use the likes of Hydreigon, who is scarier to face. It struggles to spin because so many mons, especially physically offensive guys like Scizor, straight up take advantage of it. That said a spinner that's not completely bent by Basculegion is nice, so A- feels best for it
 

Tree69420

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:magnezone: B to B-, possibly C+: Literally only able to trap Tinkaton, who's become a bit less common as of late. Scizor can pivot out with U-Turn and hit it with CC while Treads just straight up bends it. Bisharp is also an unmon so that doesn't count. It brings very little to the table outside of steel trapping, which it's barely able to do rn. Also being Tera reliant hurts it, just let this poor thing drop to RU plsthx
Choice specs timid magnezone can OHKO scizor, while I've been having quite a bit of success with a magnet rise air balloon set to trap treads. It definitely has its weaknesses but C+ feels too low for it, and I dont see how its tera reliant
 
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